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 Done and done (Full Book Spoilers)

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Calwyn
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PostSubject: Done and done (Full Book Spoilers)   Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:42 pm

True to my fashion, I stayed up past 5 am to finish off the book.

I didn't end up skipping Dany's chapters, but I did skim through it just to get the gist of it. I wouldn't have missed much though. Pretty much everything of any importance happened the way I expected it to, except Drogo dying. I figured the child would die, and I knew those eggs would be hatched into dragons and Viserys would die/be killed so Dany would be the one with the claim.

I figured Ned would die, but I was quite unhappy with the way in which he DID die. It was so anti-climactic, and I didn't think it was appropriate for his character. Call me old fashioned, but I prefer the idea that a man who lives with honour, dies honorably or with honor. He had neither. He died disgraced, in the manner befitting a common criminal. Left a real bad taste in my mouth.

Tyrion was Tyrion, meaning he was great. I love the comic relief that he and his swordarm crony (Bronn?) provide.

Jon developed interestingly, though I wish he had more time devoted to him. The way he grew as a person, and bound so many of his peers while they trained together as close friends where they had been near mortal enemies before very much reminded me of Richard Rahl doing the same when he was surrounded by hostility.

Arya ended up being fairly minor towards the end, but like Tyrion she was what she was.

Sansa needs to die. Seriously. I don't like her one iota more now that she decides she hates Joffrey. If she starts actually resisting him, trying to avenge her father or show some god damned spine, honour and dignity then we can talk about showing her mercy. Until then, I'll be cheering for her to jump out of a tower or something.

Robb's developing nicely and I love the interaction between him and his mother. Specifically, how his mother is trying to teach and guide him without harming his developing confidence or the confidence of his men in him. Him being proclaimed king of the North was unexpected, though again in hindsight there were hints that it would happen. I liked it.

Bran and the youngest Stark... forget his name... seem to be developing into magicians or some such. Bran would have to be, considering his inability to be any kind of warrior.

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PostSubject: Re: Done and done (Full Book Spoilers)   Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:55 am

Interesting summation of the book.

To address Ned's death, I think the manner of his execution was perfectly appropriate to the tone and theme of the book: life isn't fair. The worthy don't get what they deserve, and the unworthy don't get what's coming to 'em. Yes it was abrupt, and gritty, but so is the world they live in. I for one did not feel short-changed on Eddard's death. I was shocked that he died, but I wasn't left thinking, "Damnit, I wish he'd died differently, or it took longer." or anything like that. Mostly I just thought, "Damnit, I wish he hadn't died!" On that note, what the hell made you think Eddard was going to die???

Tyrion = Awesome
Jon = Awesome
Arya = Awesome (just wait)
Sansa = ...couldn't agree more
Robb = Pretty Awesome
Caitlyn = Kind of Annoying
Bran = I skimmed all of his chapters... every time I read the books (except the first time... mostly).

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PostSubject: Re: Done and done (Full Book Spoilers)   Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:01 am

Just read another post of yours about Dany. I gotta say, I never felt bored reading about Dany. Frankly, her chapters were a refreshing change from the constantly dark and cloudy mood of the Seven Kingdoms. Dany is always someplace new, and we get to learn a lot about the rest of the world during her story. The beginning of her story line is indeed pretty slow, but she will grow as a character, and her story does get more interesting. She's like Sansa. Seriously dull and repetitive, but there's potential if she gets interesting. The difference between the two is that Dany succeeds in growing a spine.

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PostSubject: Re: Done and done (Full Book Spoilers)   Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:35 am

PyroMancer wrote:
Interesting summation of the book.

To address Ned's death, I think the manner of his execution was perfectly appropriate to the tone and theme of the book: life isn't fair.

I have a few thoughts about this. Mainly, that point that life ain't fair had already been made several times: Sansa's direwolf being killed, Robert being killed, Jon's treatment by various characters, Bran's being crippled etc. Its also a point I already know well myself, and don't really need reminding. I appreciate that he's trying to be realistic in that sense, but I don't read fantasy to get realism. At some point I want to see good literary devices, and one such device I like is the one I mentioned: the death of a character befitting that character. To use an example, Snape in Harry Potter was an Anti-Hero character, and died a very Anti-Hero death. The death fit the character. I mean for cripes sake, you can still make the point that life ain't real by having Ned killed only after he fought and slew several of his gaurds in an angry fury!

Quote :
On that note, what the hell made you think Eddard was going to die???

Literature can be very predictable, especially in fantasy. The father is the old generation, his sons (especially Robb) are in developing into men. It would not do to have them as the young lordlings of Winterfell while old Ned clung to his seat. These books are centered around YOUNG heroes, with older companions/tutors/wizard-Gandalf-like dudes, who almost inevitably die so the Hero can complete his quest alone to prove his personal prowess. Its a classic literary device or plot twist to have the young son unexpectedly thrust into great power and responsibility in which he must command/control older, more experienced men, yet the son overcomes all odds to become a great warrior/general/lord/whatever.
Quote :
Just read another post of yours about Dany. I gotta say, I never felt bored reading about Dany. Frankly, her chapters were a refreshing change from the constantly dark and cloudy mood of the Seven Kingdoms. Dany is always someplace new, and we get to learn a lot about the rest of the world during her story. The beginning of her story line is indeed pretty slow, but she will grow as a character, and her story does get more interesting. She's like Sansa. Seriously dull and repetitive, but there's potential if she gets interesting. The difference between the two is that Dany succeeds in growing a spine.

Different perspectives I guess. I didn't want a refresher from the Seven Kingdoms... I was totally engrossed, and the changes of pace were disruptive to me.

As for the 'new world' that we get perspective on. Socially and culturally the Dothraki are presented almost as carbon copies of the Huns/Mongols/any Steppe nomads. I've studied them a few times, so there was not much about them that I found particularly compelling. The fact that I seem to dislike Mongolian/Hunnish history probably didn't help the book in my eyes Razz

It's not that I dislike Dany as a character... I'm kind of meh about her. I certainly like her a lot more than Sansa, but its not hard to be a lot more than zero. My problem is the storyline surrounding her. Like I said in other threads, it was extremely predictable where the other storylines were not. I called in her second chapter that Viserys would die, Dany would take his place in claiming the Seven Kingdoms, and she would hatch the dragon eggs to help that cause. When she got pregnant, I also guessed at the baby's death. The prophecy about the child being a world conqueror confirmed my suspicions.

But thats another thing. The death of the child and the death of Drogo made her entire story arch beforehand seem utterly pointless. It seems like it was only just to develop her character and provide some kind of storyline in which to establish the circumstances for the eggs to hatch.

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PostSubject: Re: Done and done (Full Book Spoilers)   Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:41 am

Really nice summaries and posts guys. I can't wait until you move on to the next ones!

For the record I have re-read the whole series but since I read it before I didn't think my "insight" would be appreciated throughout, hehe.

Honestly, what I like most about this series is that he could easily write a whole book or series about several of the key narrative characters. When the series ends I wouldn't be surprised if someone rearranges some of the character's narratives into solid block(s): Arya (especially), Jon, Bran, and possibly even Tyrion (we'll see) could definitely stand for that kind of treatment. The comment someone made about Dany being the primary window for us to actually see the rest of the world was very astute though, I had never thought of it that way before and it rang of truth. With the exception of perhaps the "beyond the wall" stuff, her sections (particularly in the following books) often take place in the most interesting locales. I omit Arya only because she's by far my favorite "child protagonist" (possibly overall as well) in any book ever and must not be spoilt.
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PostSubject: Re: Done and done (Full Book Spoilers)   Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:29 pm

I guess I'm taking Dany's storyline as a whole into consideration whereas you've only read the first book. She does an awful lot of traveling later on.

As to Eddard's death, I see your point. I guess I don't really think like that when I read a book. I'd rather read the book and be surprised by the obvious things than read a book, all the while considering what I can expect to happen based on what I know of fiction.

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PostSubject: Re: Done and done (Full Book Spoilers)   Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:48 pm

Eddard's death, and the whole "realism" thing, are revealing of Martin's view of the world. Goodkind has a healthy dose of realism in his work, particularly the battle scenes. However, he also includes realistic joy, and happyness. Realism isn't limited to horror, and any who think so reveal that there's nothing to them but horror and hatred.

Now, that said, I do not think that Martin is like this. Jon Snow's character demonstrates the ability to be a hero, even in the midst of Hell. Eddard was a hero to the end, even if his end wasn't a hero's end. Even Tyrion is heroic--overcoming his birth, becoming one of the great men in the Seven Kingdoms. Tyrion is a bit....less than heroic, but that there is ANYTHING of the hero left in him is worth note, given how the Lanesters treat him. And later books hint that we haven't really gotten into the meat of the books yet.

I agree with DuDZ--Dany is perhaps one of my least favorite characters. Eddard's wife is a close second. Sansa....I'm not sure what to think of her. She's a silly infant at first, but she seems to be growing. I'll save my speculation (it's hard to discuss themes with someone who's 1/4 of the way through a series).

I think Martin spent the first few books setting up the scenery, as it were, and it is therefore premature, even as someone who's read all the books so far published, to speculate as to Martin's sense of life and why he did what he did. He may have killed Eddard out-of-hand specifically to demonstrate that none of that was important.
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PostSubject: Re: Done and done (Full Book Spoilers)   Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:59 pm

Ok, just to clarify, by "tone of the book" I did not mean "Martin's outlook on life in general." Having read other work by Martin, I am well aware that he is no cynic.

As far as Dany is concerned, everyone I know personally who has read these books loves Dany. This forum is the first place I've encountered people who have the opposite reaction to her. So it's a little surprising, and arouses curiosity.

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PostSubject: Re: Done and done (Full Book Spoilers)   Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:53 pm

As for you wanting the death of the charchter to match or be fitting with the role or persona of the charachter, that's fun and all but as Pyro said, Martin is trying to be 'real' (as much as you can be with dragons roaming the land Razz ).

There are three things that strike me about Ned's death:
1) Cersie (sp?) was going to let Ned 'go'. Have him take the black. Not only would Ned not die honorably, he would live honorably (though a failure)

2) Joffery fucked things up. The kid asked for Ned's head, the executioner gave it to him. You wouldn't want to deny the king now would you? Razz

3) Though Ned was honorable, he had a stupidity about him. I think this is most evident in the scene where somebody (I can't remember who) tells Ned that he can arrest Cersie/Joff + her henchmen, Ned declined (I think b/c he was waiting for something or he considered it dishonorable to arrest them in the night or something like that). Shortly thereafter (I think the next day) Ned himself was arrested by a treacherous Littlefinger.

Now you can go back and say that it is Martin himself who is the puppet master and he decides all these things. Sure, but he's telling a story and he was consistnet with everyone's personality and tendencies. ie, Joff's fuck up.

To be honest, I didn't see Ned's death coming. Evne though I'm quite familar with the 'get rid of the old man/father' archetype, I had associated Ned as 'the' main charachter in my mind. I had this framework concieved that the book was overall about Ned, therefore he couldnl't die (at least not in this book), huge error on my part, but there you have it. Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Done and done (Full Book Spoilers)   Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:49 pm

I saw it coming. A hero in that sort of environment? He wasn't going to last long. John Galt is one of the few fictional heros I've ever read about that had any knowledge of evil. Manwe let Morgoth go after what, three ages? Aragorn let Grima go. Eragon stupidly went after a Shade. The list goes on. Heroes are almost universally portrayed as idealists with no understanding of how politics works, and this leads to two conclusions: They triumph, thanks to some outside aid, if the book is going for Romanticism. Or they die horrible deaths, if the books is going for Realism. Martin is going for gritty realism. Ned had to die.

Quote :
Ok, just to clarify, by "tone of the book" I did not mean "Martin's outlook on life in general." Having read other work by Martin, I am well aware that he is no cynic.
Yeah, I figured as much. I haven't read anything else by Martin, but he seems to be setting up some fairly heroic deeds. And let's face it, most writers can't show heroism without showing the slime of evil first. I just remember Mystar's take on this subject, and the Westeros view of Mr. Goodkind. It's hard for me to discuss Martin's work without that baggage.

Quote :
As far as Dany is concerned, everyone I know personally who has read these books loves Dany. This forum is the first place I've encountered people who have the opposite reaction to her. So it's a little surprising, and arouses curiosity.

I don't like Dany because most of what she's done so far seems either pointless to the rest of the plot, or stupid, or both. I'm sure it'll tie together later (I'm thinking Jon and Dany hooking up?), but right now Martin hasn't given us enough of a connection to make her stories worth it. She's not a character I'd want to read a book about, and her chapters take away from the ones I DO want to read a book about.

[quote]Now you can go back and say that it is Martin himself who is the puppet master and he decides all these things. Sure, but he's telling a story and he was consistnet with everyone's personality and tendencies. ie, Joff's fuck up.
[quote]That's one thing I like about Martin--he's consistent. Some people change through the books, sometimes a great deal, but the change always makes sense. You see how, and why. Wish I could point to specific examles, but it'd ruin those parts for people who haven't read the books yet. Smile The story is logical, and surprising--a rare combination. And yes, there are surprises in store. Some of the normal tropes as well, but some truly "Wait...WHAT? WHY DID HE DO THAT?!" moments (and at least one "FINALLY!" moment I can think of) are on the way.
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PostSubject: Re: Done and done (Full Book Spoilers)   Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:31 pm

PyroMancer wrote:
I guess I'm taking Dany's storyline as a whole into consideration whereas you've only read the first book. She does an awful lot of traveling later on.

I realize, or I at least assume, that she'll have a much larger role later on considering what she will be trying to do. But for this book, her storyline seemed like it was just there to establish who she is and what she's about for later books. As far as THIS book, she seemed very unimportant in the scheme of things.

Quote :
As to Eddard's death, I see your point. I guess I don't really think like that when I read a book. I'd rather read the book and be surprised by the obvious things than read a book, all the while considering what I can expect to happen based on what I know of fiction.

Don't you read a lot, or watch TV and movies? There's a pattern to all stories, a loose pattern but a pattern none the less. Specifics are hard to guess at, but more general things are quite easy if you've read/seen enough stories to have picked that pattern up.

PyroMancer wrote:
As far as Dany is concerned, everyone I know personally who has read these books loves Dany. This forum is the first place I've encountered people who have the opposite reaction to her. So it's a little surprising, and arouses curiosity.

Again, it's not that I dislike her as a character. It's the storyline she was put in for this book at least that I didn't like. As Dinwar said above, she just seems pointless compared to everything else. She's a fringe character with fringe importance so far (I must stress that last part)

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PostSubject: Re: Done and done (Full Book Spoilers)   Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:39 pm

lalib wrote:
As for you wanting the death of the charchter to match or be fitting with the role or persona of the charachter, that's fun and all but as Pyro said, Martin is trying to be 'real' (as much as you can be with dragons roaming the land Razz ).

There are three things that strike me about Ned's death:
1) Cersie (sp?) was going to let Ned 'go'. Have him take the black. Not only would Ned not die honorably, he would live honorably (though a failure)

2) Joffery fucked things up. The kid asked for Ned's head, the executioner gave it to him. You wouldn't want to deny the king now would you? Razz

3) Though Ned was honorable, he had a stupidity about him. I think this is most evident in the scene where somebody (I can't remember who) tells Ned that he can arrest Cersie/Joff + her henchmen, Ned declined (I think b/c he was waiting for something or he considered it dishonorable to arrest them in the night or something like that). Shortly thereafter (I think the next day) Ned himself was arrested by a treacherous Littlefinger.

I have to admit, I WAS surprised that the Queen was willing to give him mercy considering what he knew about her and Joffrey. It would have been a collosally stupid mistake to let that kind of knowledge continue to live on where it could wait to come back and bit you in the arse. I mean she had Arryn killed when he was still honorably alive as the King's hand with no blemish or dislike from ANYONE, yet here Ned was with the noose put around his own neck by his percieved treachery, which everyone believed, and she was willing to pardon him? I found that a tough pill to swallow. That also leads me to disagree that Joff having him killed was a fuck up. While he's in a precarious situation right now thats nothing compared to the boiling cauldron he'd be thrown in if it were known that he was the son of an incestuous union between the Queen and her brother Jaime.

But I agree that Ned's honour got him into more problems than it helped resolve, but I admired him for sticking to it. As something of an idealist, I would like to believe that people should have the moralistic willpower to stick to such high principles as honesty and fairness even if it works against them sometimes. He had the courage to stick to his guns, so to speak, and though it led to his downfall it also allowed him to have a pretty damn good life for himself. Getting back to the 'reality' aspect, in true reality or the world we live in, we could use more men like Eddard Stark.

Quote :
To be honest, I didn't see Ned's death coming. Evne though I'm quite familar with the 'get rid of the old man/father' archetype, I had associated Ned as 'the' main charachter in my mind. I had this framework concieved that the book was overall about Ned, therefore he couldnl't die (at least not in this book), huge error on my part, but there you have it. Razz

See, you need to look at the long-term picture. What makes for a better tale (typically), a story about a middle aged lord trying to keep the world a good place, or having him killed and his young son try and overcome even greater odds because of his age to avenge the father while also trying to fulfill the inherited task of making the world what his father was trying to make it? Revenge, murder, and young blood make for a much better story than just the one element of the old guy being there the whole time Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Done and done (Full Book Spoilers)   Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:03 pm

Quote :
I have to admit, I WAS surprised that the Queen was willing to give him mercy
She wasn't. The Wall isn't mercy, it's a death sentence, all be it a slow one. Sure, Eddard would have a certain amount of prestege there, being of noble birth and former ruler of the North, but he'd still just be a soldier on the Wall, and an old one at that. She'd have a king she probably could easily manipulate (16 year olds are fairly easy to seduce, or threaten, or bribe, any one of which the Queen is fully capable of). And if Eddard HAPPENED to have a horrible accident, well, everyone KNOWS life on the Wall is hard. Let's not forget, too, that pretty much everyone on the Wall is a criminal. The taint of that stigma would rub off on Eddard.

Plus, with a guy as duty-bound as Eddard Stark, the Wall is more effective than any prison. The Watch takes no part in the activities of the realm. NONE. If that point wasn't made clear so far, it will be in the next book. Eddard would not take such a vow lightly; he'd honor it, and effectively remove himself from the Seven Kingdoms. Walls of stone and steel are no match for the walls a man of honor imposes on himself.

Finally, the people like Eddard. Not the nobility (when has any noble loved an honest man?), but the commoners. And in a society where the army is made up of levies ran by knights, angering the commoners is a very, very, VERY bad idea. Sure, no village has enough cash to hire mercs; but if you annoy an entire kingdom, mercenaries would flock to them. And if not, there's literally tens if not hundreds of thousands of them. You really don't want to make your citizenry angry when your primary weapons of war are shock weapons. "No single ashigaru can defeat a samurai, but nine may tire him so that the tenth may kill him," as an old L5R card put it. Killing Eddard would have upset the citizens and incited general rebelion, at least in the North. Oh, and let's not forget that there are areas where the Crown's hold is.....tenuous. They won't strike out against the Crown so long as the Crown is strong, but if the Crown has to fight a two-front war already....

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What makes for a better tale (typically), a story about a middle aged lord trying to keep the world a good place, or having him killed and his young son try and overcome even greater odds because of his age to avenge the father while also trying to fulfill the inherited task of making the world what his father was trying to make it?
Yeah, sure, okay.
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PostSubject: Re: Done and done (Full Book Spoilers)   Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:18 pm

I believe the thinking was that if he confessed to the crimes, any claim he made would be unreliable in the eyes of any lord in the Kingdom. Additionally, precisely BECAUSE he is so popular, NOT killing him gives the North much less reason to go to war.

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PostSubject: Re: Done and done (Full Book Spoilers)   Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:32 pm

Dinwar wrote:
Quote :
I have to admit, I WAS surprised that the Queen was willing to give him mercy
She wasn't.

Gonna have to disagree. Dead is dead, and can't tell no tales as the saying goes. Sure he'd be on the wall, and an accident could be aranged just as it was for Robert, but why bother taking the risk and waiting when you had the perfect excuse to do it right then and there? You say the commoners loved him, but at his confession/execution they were reviling him, throwing rocks and such at him. His perceived treachery had turned everyone who didn't know better (which was very few) against him.

Keeping him alive and allowing him to serve in the Black Watch on the wall would be a perfect outlet for a man as honorable as he was, which is why I say its a mercy as opposed to killing him while he was in complete disgrace.

Quote :
Killing Eddard would have upset the citizens and incited general rebelion, at least in the North.

They were facing rebellion no matter what they did. Because of the murder of Lord Arryn, the previous Hand, Stannis was already in 'rebellion' against allt he Lannisters. After the death of Robert he had the next best claim after Joffrey, but because of Joff's true father he actually had the BEST claim. Removing Robert and replacing him with Joffrey put Stannis and his supporters instantly into open rebellion. The war that had already broken out put the Tully's and THEIR supporters at war with the Lannisters and by extension the Queen and Joffrey. And because of the twice attempted murder of Bran and the Stark's close relations with the Tully's that put the NORTH in open rebellion against them too.

Killing Ned just made an exchange of hostages impossible. But what it also did was eliminate some dangerous information (as far the Queen knows Ned was the only one to know) that would turn EVERYONE against her and Joffrey, but not in rebellion. You cannot rebel against someone who under the law had no lawful claim to the throne in the first place. In fact, then Joffrey and the Queen are the ones who are the rebels. Whatever support they had would crumble away to only Lord Tywin and the rest of the Lannisters... maybe not even them. Tywin might not like the idea of his two children have incestuous relations with each other.

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PostSubject: Re: Done and done (Full Book Spoilers)   Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:23 pm

I'm gonna have to re-read that part...I know the populace at the trial threw rocks and such at him, but let's face it, the populace at any trial will do that. It was a spectacle in the Middle Ages--entertainment as much as justice (and often at the expense of justice). Plus, a lot of that may be due to money. The right soldier drinking the right tavern telling the right tale will turn the people against someone, for a week.

But let's go with your concept of mercy. The Queen is not loved in the realm, that much is obvious. The Lanesters are tolerated, because they have more money than God. She constantly needs to remind people that she is a queen. Mercy is a very good way to do that--that's the whole reason the prisoners go to the Wall in the first place (well, that and as a joke). Remember how Jagang was renamed Jagang the Just? Same with the Queen--she needed something high-profile to throw in peoples' faces, showing that she's not the evil viper they all know her to be.

Quote :
But what it also did was eliminate some
dangerous information (as far the Queen knows Ned was the only one to
know) that would turn EVERYONE against her and Joffrey, but not in
rebellion.
Quote :
After the death of Robert he had the next best
claim after Joffrey, but because of Joff's true father he actually had
the BEST claim. Removing Robert and replacing him with Joffrey put
Stannis and his supporters instantly into open rebellion.
These two quotes contradict one another. Stannis had no love for the Lanesters, but if he didn't know (or suspect) Joff's parentage he wouldn't have been in rebelion. Stannis didn't like Robert, but Robert was king and that was that. If Joff was Robert's son, that would have ended it. If Stannis THOUGHT Joff was Robert's son, that would have ended it (or, more accurately, the Queen would have had to find a much more convincing pretense by which to eliminate Stannis). Either he knew, in which case getting rid of Ned did nothing, or he didn't, in which case he wasn't in rebelion.

Quote :
Tywin might not like the idea of his two children have incestuous relations with each other.
Yeah......Let's just say Tywin is a bit of a prude. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Done and done (Full Book Spoilers)   Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:51 pm

Dinwar wrote:
She constantly needs to remind people that she is a queen. Mercy is a very good way to do that--that's the whole reason the prisoners go to the Wall in the first place (well, that and as a joke). Remember how Jagang was renamed Jagang the Just? Same with the Queen--she needed something high-profile to throw in peoples' faces, showing that she's not the evil viper they all know her to be.

She stood to lose a lot more than she would gain. By letting him live, she would convert but a few. Ned knew (or thought) she caused Robert's death, knew (or thought) that she or her relatives whom she supported caused Bran's fall and tried to have him assassinated, and knew (or thought) that she had Lord Arryn killed. But it wasnt just him that knew or thought that, so too did most of his family: his wife, and his eldest son. As a result, the North was already hostile to her no matter what she did.

And because people like Lord Stannis and Lord Renly also thought she had a hand in Robert and Arryn's deaths, and because of the stupid mistakes Joff was making under her thumb, there were a great deal of other people in other parts of the kingdom hostile to her and her son.

And because of the war that had sprung up between the Lannisters and the Tully's that was originally seperate from the issues at the court, that brought MORE people into hostility with the Queen as she obviously supported her relatives. So the other side naturally became hostile to her.

Those are BIG names with many followers already hostile to her, and that wasn't going to change if she pardoned Ned. She might sway a few people in the city itself, but not in the Kingdom at large. Moreover, she stood to lose a lot more if Ned should ever open his mouth about the many crimes she had committed. And precisely because she was already disliked by so many people, much of the kingdom was likely to believe Ned.

But all of that aside, let's go back to the fundamentals. Is it not a mercy to spare someone's life rather have them killed? Life on the wall might be harsh, but its not abysmal. He'd be with his brother (so he might think) and his bastard son, and performing an honorable duty in the North which was his homeland close to his family and loved ones. Giving him that rather than a death, and a death in disgrace at that, is a mercy.

Quote :
Quote :
But what it also did was eliminate some
dangerous information (as far the Queen knows Ned was the only one to
know) that would turn EVERYONE against her and Joffrey, but not in
rebellion.



Quote :
After the death of Robert he had the next best
claim after Joffrey, but because of Joff's true father he actually had
the BEST claim. Removing Robert and replacing him with Joffrey put
Stannis and his supporters instantly into open rebellion.

These two quotes contradict one another.

It isn't, actually. In both cases I was speaking of the fact that Joffrey truly had no claim to the throne because of his true father. Thus, Stannis had the best claim. But 'best claims' also don't count for everything. You have to have some force to back that up. We've also seen Lord Renly claim the throne, despite him being at best the second best claim and if no one knows about Joffrey's true father the third best.

On the one hand, it would be perceived as rebellion against Joffrey's rule as long as no one suspected that he was not the King's son. Objectively speaking, he was completely illigitimate: an incestuous bastard. So fighting a war to depose him would not be rebellion, legally speaking. It would be a just war to eliminate an illigitimate usurper. But of course, very few people know the truth. So it can be construed as a rebellion still.

Martin is nothing if not a master of constructing a complicated political narrative Razz

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