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PostSubject: Steve Jobs has passed away   Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:19 pm

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IMagius
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PostSubject: Re: Steve Jobs has passed away   Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:45 pm

Wow ... I thought there was a thread around here not long ago about him leaving Apple ... guess his death wasn't a shock to those in his inner circle then.
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PostSubject: Re: Steve Jobs has passed away   Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:29 pm

I remember hearing rumours he was leaving either because of cancer or aids. Guess this confirms at least that he had something.

I'm sad for him, but no more sad than I'd be for any other stranger. He's not Mother Theresa or a saint among men. He was a brilliant businessmen, I'll grant, but there ain't nothing special about businessmen.

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PostSubject: Re: Steve Jobs has passed away   Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:41 pm

I'll beg to differ, Calwyn. Jobs IS a saint among men. During his tenure at Apple he demonstrably improved the quality of life of many, many people. Okay, so the iPhone did start the whole Angry Birds thing, but no one's perfect--the fact remains that he has made our lives, even people like me who don't own a single Apple product, better, and at the very least we owe him our respect and thanks.

As you said, he was a brilliant businessman--which means that he was brilliant at providing to people products which improved their lives, at prices they could afford. He took the benefits of science and made them available to the public. And I'm much more sorry to see him go than I would be a hundred of Mother Theresa's ilk, because he objectively did more to benefit mankind than a hundred of Mother Theresa ever could.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not morning his death. I didn't know him, all I knew was his company. He was a stranger to me, and I to him. What I feel is more what's expressed in the Psalm of Life by Longfellow:

Lives of great men all remind us we can make our lives sublime
And, departing, leave behind us footprints in the sands of time.
Footprints, that perhaps another sailing o'er life's solemn main
Some forlorn and shipwrecked brother, seeing, shall take heart again.

Jobs has left his footprints pretty deeply in the sands of time, and here's hoping that his life and his accomplishments inspire many more like him.
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PostSubject: Re: Steve Jobs has passed away   Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:43 pm

I'm not really mourning his death either. At least, not in the way that I mourn the deaths of people I've known. But I have respect for what Jobs accomplished, and what he allowed others to accomplish. He may not have built the Apple II or the iPhone, but would they have become so ubiquitous if not for his business sense? And if not, how drastically would that have changed the course of technology? And of course, without Jobs' investment Pixar likely would not have been able to finish Toy Story, and instead would have faded into obscurity.

The man made an impressive impact on the world. Had he not gotten cancer, who knows what other things may have been accomplished because of his influence.
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PostSubject: Re: Steve Jobs has passed away   Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:42 pm

Dinwar wrote:
As you said, he was a brilliant businessman--which means that he was brilliant at providing to people products which improved their lives, at prices they could afford.

This is where I disagree. I don't think he "improved" our lives. He helped made them, perhaps, more convenient. Now admittedly I'm no expert on the impact Apple has had beyond computers and entertainment/leisure technology, but can I say my life is "better" or "improved" because I have sleeker, faster computers, or a portable device that holds more music? Honestly my life isn't fundamentally different now than it was when I had a DOS computer and an audio cassette walkman.

Did his technology help improve medical technology or something? Did apple help extend life expectancy? I'm not being rhetorical here, if he actually did I'd change my tune. But I've never heard that he has helped do such things even from people that worship Apple and Steve Jobs like a god.

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PostSubject: Re: Steve Jobs has passed away   Thu Oct 06, 2011 11:05 pm

Calwyn wrote:

This is where I disagree. I don't think he "improved" our lives. He helped made them, perhaps, more convenient.
And that's not an improvement?

Most great technological inventions were just things that made life a bit more convenient. I mean, a car is just a more convenient way to travel than a horse, right? A phone is a bit more convenient than a telegraph, a light bulb is a bit more convenient than a candle, etc.


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PostSubject: Re: Steve Jobs has passed away   Fri Oct 07, 2011 12:09 am

It's semantics for me, really. I'm talking fundamental improvement here, but I digress. Like the invention of the steam engine, or the discovery of electricity, or a cure for polio, or pacemakers, etc.

Let's continue with your analogy. A car is a lot more convenient than a horse, so too a phone to a telegraph and a light bulb to a candle. I agree with that.

But what did Jobs do that compares to those? He didn't invent the computer. He didn't invent hand-held, portable music players. How did he revolutionize our way of life? How did he better humanity? How did he make life significantly better for people around the world, regardless of the country, social/economic standing, or whatever? He didn't invent the internet (internet, internet). And I would argue that, at best, he only marginally improved computers and technology better than other companies did. He HELPED make computers, cell phones, music devices smaller, sleeker, with some more memory, and faster. And Apple products remain pretty damn expensive too, so it's not like he made them accessible to the masses. As far as computers go, Apple is mostly a niche product for artists and designers. The majority of people use other computers with Windows operating systems. As far as music technology goes, iPods and iTunes, he had the most impact. Great, I respect him for all that and I love my iPod. But how much higher does that elevate him over all the others that helped advance personal computers, portable music devices, social music downloading, etc? Is he peerless? Is he on a whole other level than anyone else? Personally I would say no to both questions.

How is he actually a saint among men? Again, I'm no expert on him or his life, or Apple and what it has done in the field of technological advancement. If there's something I don't know about, please fill me in. Because from the reactions some people had when they heard of his death you'd think they just heard Gandhi or Martin Luther King Jr. died or something and I just don't think he's on the same level.

Anyways, I've spent more time on this than I would have liked to since it feels like I'm bad mouthing another human being just after they died. It doesn't feel right, no matter how many times I also say I'm sad that he died and I respect his accomplishments.

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PostSubject: Re: Steve Jobs has passed away   Fri Oct 07, 2011 8:41 am

Calwyn wrote:

But what did Jobs do that compares to those? He didn't invent the computer. He didn't invent hand-held, portable music players.
To get an idea of why Jobs was important, look at what happened to Apple when he was fired in 1985. The company stopped being the success it had been under his leadership, and in 1996 they bought his new company for a few hundred million plus a boatload of Apple stock, and within a year made him CEO again.

Just having people to make these inventions isn't enough. If the Apple II had stayed in Wozniak's garage, it would not have had any impact on the role of computers in our lives. Remember, the Apple II was the first home computer to see widespread use. If Apple hadn't created the Mac, would the computer mouse (developed decades earlier) have come into widespread use?

Quote :
he only marginally improved computers and technology better than other companies did
True. But without his influence computers may not have become popular at all (or at least, not in the way they did at the time they did--it's impossible to say how removing his contribution would have changed the history of computing, but it certainly would have changed it).

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PostSubject: Re: Steve Jobs has passed away   Fri Oct 07, 2011 12:54 pm

Steve Jobes died punching a goddamn tiger, too. He'll be missed.

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PostSubject: Re: Steve Jobs has passed away   Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:34 pm

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Honestly my life isn't fundamentally different now than it was when I had a DOS computer and an audio cassette walkman.
A great invention isn't necessarily one that makes life different. In fact, I'd say an invention is fundamentally incapable of such a thing. My life would not be fundamentally different in the Middle Ages than it is now--it's just that it would be much, much harder to do what I enjoy. Sure, a Walkman and a DOS computer will work--but a faster computer, a more versatile computer, and even a better way to store songs makes one able to do more with one's life. Jobs' company made our lives better in a lot of ways--not necessarily fundamentally different, but he made the superficial aspects better.

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How did he make life significantly better for people around the world, regardless of the country, social/economic standing, or whatever?
Simple: He made those things which already exist available, and typically in an improved form, to a wider range of people. And if you don't think that that's something worth praising, ask yourself why we remember Henry Ford.

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Because from the reactions some people had when they heard of his death you'd think they just heard Gandhi or Martin Luther King Jr. died or something and I just don't think he's on the same level.
You're right, but in the reverse of the way you intended. Gandhi was a racist and a hypocritical pervert, by his own admission (not that there's anything wrong with a little perversion, but at least don't look down on others who enjoy their own kinks). Martin Luther King Jr. was significantly better--he actually made a real contribution to society--but he also used force to get it across (pushing someone to the point where they need to use force to defend their own property, such as by staging a sit-in, is using force). Steve Jobs was, as you said, a businessman: he provided goods and services to people who wanted them in exchange for an agreed-upon price. While this may seem minor, when you consider the fact that our options are free trade or barbarism and, for millions or billions of people, death, I'd say that a quite feeling of gratitude to an honest trader, particularly one this good, is warranted. Certainly more so than morning the loss of some "selfless" saint.

Quote :

Anyways, I've spent more time on this than I would have liked to since it feels like I'm bad mouthing another human being just after they died. It doesn't feel right, no matter how many times I also say I'm sad that he died and I respect his accomplishments.
You're asking valid questions, and forcing those of us who disagree to defend our positions. Smile That's what discussions are all about.
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PostSubject: Re: Steve Jobs has passed away   Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:16 pm

It is sad in that a person is gone from this earth. I see a lot of discussion here about whether or not he was good or bad; he was both , as are we all (although I'm sure you guys already thought of that and are arguing his degree of goodness and evilness). I feel bad for his family, to have lost a loved one. I myself am not particularly sad but I do have sadness for his friends and family.
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PostSubject: Re: Steve Jobs has passed away   Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:17 pm

Woah woah, I never meant to imply that I thought he has bad. I was just saying I don't think he's as great as some people have portrayed him.

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PostSubject: Re: Steve Jobs has passed away   Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:25 am

RainCloud wrote:
It is sad in that a person is gone from this earth. I see a lot of discussion here about whether or not he was good or bad; he was both , as are we all (although I'm sure you guys already thought of that and are arguing his degree of goodness and evilness). I feel bad for his family, to have lost a loved one. I myself am not particularly sad but I do have sadness for his friends and family.

I'm not bad at all actually.

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PostSubject: Re: Steve Jobs has passed away   Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:42 pm

Calwyn wrote:
Woah woah, I never meant to imply that I thought he has bad. I was just saying I don't think he's as great as some people have portrayed him.

Sorry, I was just scanning the thread and I should have been more clear (this is what happens when trying to respond during class lol x.x). I wasn't just talking about what I read when I was scanning the thread but also debates I heard the day and day after he died. I did actually hear of a few people literally debating whether or not he was a horrible man, whether he was going to heaven or hell for what he did. Sorry for the mixup! I didn't mean to imply anything about what you said.

@Talonnolan: Right. You've never done a bad thing in your life? Never cheated on a test, forgotten to pay for something before you left for the store, or even just misled people in a conversation? Sure, it matters what you think about what you did but overall, a person is more what people think of him/her. I have an essay on that somewhere...
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PostSubject: Re: Steve Jobs has passed away   Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:51 pm

Steve Jobs himself knew there was a darker side to his story. In fact, that was one of the things that impresses me most about him. When he selected the guy to write his biography, he told the him not to sugarcoat anything. A lot better than trying to dictate the history he wanted people to see.

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PostSubject: Re: Steve Jobs has passed away   Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:29 pm

I remember hearing the same thing about the official biography, but I've heard from some people who read the book that it does a lot of glorifying Jobs and does not do a lot of delving into that ''darker side''.

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PostSubject: Re: Steve Jobs has passed away   Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:37 pm

Jobs was an asshole especially in the earlier years. He had no qualms about stealing from friends.
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PostSubject: Re: Steve Jobs has passed away   Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:48 am

Well, that's disappointing, Brian.

And yeah, Foggy, we all knew he was an asshole. :p Wink

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